Powering Change: What It Takes to Electrify Australian Industry

[00:00:00] Sarah:

Welcome to Wired for Good, conversations for a better energy future. The podcast exploring how we can achieve a faster, fairer, and more affordable energy transition. Brought to you by Ausgrid, this podcast aims to make the complex energy industry more accessible, and address how the energy transition can unlock greater benefits for all Australians.

Join us as we bring together leaders and experts to tackle the big questions on what's needed to achieve an energy future we're proud to leave as a legacy for the next generation.

Hello, and welcome to Wired for Good, the podcast where we explore the people, ideas, and innovations shaping Australia's energy future. I'm your host, Sarah Aubrey. In this episode, we explore the importance and complexity of electrifying Australia's businesses. While some industries face specific decarbonisation challenges, all business will need to transform their operations if we're to reduce our energy profile. Network businesses have a unique position in this energy transition to both support other industries in their transformation, but also to lead the way in transforming their own businesses.

To help us unpack the challenges from electrifying logistics and transport to property and other infrastructure considerations, I'm joined today by Nigel Lowry, Group Exec Property, Logistics, and Governance at Ausgrid, and Dani Alexander, CEO, University of New South Wales Institute. Welcome. It's lovely to have you both here.

[00:01:32] Nigel:

Great to be here, Sarah.

[00:01:32] Dani:

Thank you.

[00:01:33] Sarah:

All right. So much to talk about today. Before we dive into the challenges of electrifying businesses, I'd like to take a step back and understand what industries in Australia are already electrifying, and where the big opportunities are to reduce emissions. So, Dani, actually, before we start, can you explain what the UNSW Energy Institute does?

[00:01:56] Dani:

Of course, happy to. So, we at UNSW have a very long legacy in energy research and technology development. So, our institute seeks to bring together all of the capabilities that we have across faculties in the service of the net zero transformation. What that means in practice, of course, is complex and is very broad across those faculties, but we do seek to come under three main objectives.

The first is to support a consumer-led energy transformation. The second is to support the integration of close to 100% variable renewables on our electricity grid.

[00:02:34] Sarah:

Mm-hmm ...

[00:02:34] Dani:

And the third is to support Australia's ambition to become a renewable energy innovation superpower.

[00:02:41] Sarah:

And that would focus more on the commercial side and business side?

[00:02:45] Dani:

It's interesting because businesses come through all of those different objectives from the consumer side. So, we think about consumers from the household level, but also all the way to large energy users. It comes to the grid side because as you can imagine, there are many businesses involved in the electricity value chain, as well as, of course, the new businesses that we might be able to support with a future made in Australia as the government policy articulates.

[00:03:09] Sarah:

Interesting. And how is Australia doing in terms of reducing emissions from the business sector?

[00:03:15] Dani:

We are making progress. So, we've seen a drop of a couple of percent in the emissions from our business sector. But, but it's a big mountain to climb. So, the business sector as it is recorded by our greenhouse gas reporting through the Clean Energy Regulators shows that we, of our national emissions, 85% are coming from the business sector.

[00:03:39] Sarah:

Wow.

[00:03:39] Dani:

It's a huge amount, which, you know, is something that we need to address, we need to prioritise. But, you know, I think it's a huge opportunity for Australian businesses as well to get the benefits of a renewable future.

[00:03:51] Sarah:

Which industries are the biggest emitters?

[00:03:53] Dani:

It's interesting because you've got to break it down into scopes. That's how we, we talk about it. Scope one, scope two, and scope three, and it differs between those scopes. So, scope one is where you're generating or using that energy on site. Scope two is where you, say, purchase electricity, and scope three is your value chain or your supply chain all the way to your customers.

So, it differs with those businesses. Uh, but if you're looking at scope one, as you can imagine, it's those businesses that generate electricity, use energy on site for their operations. If you're talking about electricity users, large electricity users, that's the scope two. That's where you see, you know, your large mining companies.

[00:04:34] Sarah:

Right. Hmm. I just learnt something. Now I know what scope one, two, and three means. Uh, and which, just finally, and then I will actually get to you, Nigel. You do talk, I promise. Which are the hardest industries to abate?

[00:04:49] Dani:

There are definitely some pathways that are more clear than others. So, when we look at some of the sectors that are using, say, liquid fuels like diesel or gas, where there's no clear electric alternative as an example, they, they have a less clear pathway to decarbonisation.

[00:05:07] Sarah:

Mm.

[00:05:08] Dani:

Even if there is a clear pathway, there's still work to do to, to follow that path, and we need to have all of the sectors of our economy, academia, government, and industry working together to be able to not just clear up the pathway so we have a clear vision of how to get there, but also walk along that path.

[00:05:25] Sarah:

So, what sort of industries are we talking? Um, mining, farming, trucking, and then heavy industries that use a lot of gas. Are we talking that?

[00:05:35] Dani:

That's right. So those that are having a harder time at seeing the pathway there are those, yes, as you say, are the heavy industries that are using a lot of gas, the transport sectors that don't have a clear electric alternative, but also agriculture as well.

You know, I know perhaps on this podcast you've spoken to Lord Adair Turner and he, you know, he has quite clearly articulated how tricky it is for agriculture to decarbonise because it's not possible to get to zero emissions. You actually need to look at sequestration opportunities as well.

[00:06:04] Sarah:

Mm. How about we start with the small stuff, right?

[00:06:08] Nigel:

Absolutely.

[00:06:09] Sarah:

We'll get to that. So, Nigel, from a network perspective which industries are the most complex, although we've just sort of talked about that, or challenging to electrify? Do you have any other ideas on that from a network perspective?

[00:06:21] Nigel:

Look, I think Dani's given a really good summary.

It's, you know, there's the three main categories, those heavy industries that require a lot of intense energy. Um, there's also heavy freight, which we'll come to, and transportation, and then aviation and shipping. Or those are the three buckets that we think about as being the hardest to electrify.

[00:06:41] Sarah:

So, in terms of freight, is rail an alternative to that or is it more electrifying trucks?

[00:06:48] Nigel:

Well, that's a, that's a great question. One of the issues with freight is the really heavy haulage at the moment is all diesel locomotives. Um, and we'd love to see that all switch to, uh, electric. At the moment, the technology's not quite there, but we, you know, that is coming.

[00:07:07] Sarah:

Are we talking long haul, not short haul?

[00:07:08] Nigel:

Longer haul.

[00:07:09] Sarah:

Yeah.

[00:07:09] Nigel:

Long haul, absolutely. The other issue is when we talk about road freight, even though there's been an uptake and a continued uptake in the purchase of electric vehicles for passengers and some light vans, when you look at the heavy freight, and the big trucks, the B-Doubles and those long haul trucks, they're almost all still running on diesel.

[00:07:35] Sarah:

Those long haul trucks are using the most fuel, and I was just thinking about the Hume, for example. Daniel Bleakley from New Energy Transport was talking about that you could electrify the Hume for a billion dollars. And when you think Bowen, Chris Bowen was talking about how it would cost $20 billion to add another 60 days of storage, you sort of go, "Ooh."

Those billions of dollars are adding up, and should we be spending it on something as big as fuel storage or that amount of fuel storage when you could electrify the Hume? Which has something like 4,000 truck movements between just Sydney and Melbourne, and then 3,800 to Brisbane, and then it's another 4,200 from Brisbane to Cairns.

It's like, just thousands upon thousands a day, it's just the volume of it is extraordinary.

[00:08:23] Dani:

It is interesting when you talk about percentage of transport versus the criticality of those transport routes. You know, when we talk about situations in crisis, like COVID as an example, where some of those transport routes were at risk.

[00:08:40] Sarah:

Mm.

[00:08:41] Dani:

We really see how quickly those impacts are felt all the way into the households with the things that you buy that are taken by that freight.

[00:08:51] Sarah:

Well, not even just COVID, but now.

[00:08:52] Dani:

Yeah. But now.

[00:08:53] Sarah:

It's all just been revealed right now. I mean, this is the first time on this podcast we've talked about the oil crisis, but it's really revealed, would you not agree, that we are so vulnerable?

Australia is the biggest importer of diesel in the world, 90 million liters of diesel a day, which are as a consumer, as a just a, a regular punter, I was shocked by how much we actually consume and how reliant we are on that. Do you actually think we'll see the effects of this for quite a period of time?

[00:09:22] Dani:

I think so. I do. I do think it's making people think about our future energy security, which has been in this circumstance a very long period of time, but now it's at the forefront of the public consciousness.

[00:09:38] Sarah:

Do you think we're at a crossroads, though? Because there seems to be two schools of thought. "Oh, we should build more storage, and we should drill, baby, drill," that kind of side of things, and essentially double down on fossil fuels.

And then there's the other side that says, "No, this is our opportunity to really double down on renewables and energy sovereignty and shifting away from fossil fuels."

[00:09:57] Nigel:

It could be both. Uh, it could be both. And maybe that's not entirely a bad thing. In the very short term, we still need a lot of energy that's not electricity, that's the sad reality.

And we need diesel, and we need diesel storage, if we are faced with something like this again or something more serious. At the same time, and I'm sure this will be borne out in the statistics when we look back at vehicle sales during the current quarter, I think a lot of people around the kitchen table, at the very least, are starting to seriously talk about electric alternatives to what they would've previously bought, which is a diesel or a petrol car.

And that won't change everything overnight, but I do think that we're actually goanna see a subtle shift for people really starting to think more about what they can do with electricity and, and that, you know, is based on a real concern around energy sovereignty.

[00:10:54] Sarah:

Mm. Well, just, not just as a nation, but in your own little castle. You can have a car there that can power your home if the power goes out. You have that safety net. And you can have your fuel from your roof as opposed to having to go to this centralised source where you're beholden to these volatile prices.

Isn't it amazing that we've had two fossil fuel price shocks within the decade, and we're in 2026 and you're just like, uhh it's just shocking.

[00:11:25] Dani:

It's an interesting question that you ask when you talk about what should we do at this juncture and what do we have, uh, an advantage in as Australia when it comes to our resources.

So, if you look at our current exports, you see that we do have a significant portion that's coming from energy. It's largely coal and gas. But we're not seeing that in oil. As you say, you know, we have a trade deficit in that space. So, we've looked at that as a market and said, "This is not for us."

[00:11:52] Sarah:

Mm.

[00:11:53] Dani:

But what we also know is we have extraordinary renewable energy resources. The wind and solar is really hard to beat here in Australia compared to any other country. So, we have an opportunity here at this juncture to take advantage of that, and that makes our new energy trade look really bright and windy.

[00:12:12] Sarah:

And sunny.

[00:12:14] Nigel:

You've used that line before.

Dani:

First time. First time. You heard it here first.

[00:12:18] Sarah:

Hold onto that one. Well, no one's fought a war over wind or sunshine yet, so, uh, and I don't think they can, and that's probably what people are starting to realise. Well, Daniel Bleakley again said that a diesel truck, to buy a diesel truck is 250, $300,000.

But you could expect over a 10-year period if you were driving that truck between Sydney and Melbourne, so over 10 years you'd spend $2 million on fuel. And a diesel truck is essentially a working debt. Whereas an electric vehicle, you could charge it during the day, you could, you could charge it from, you could be, have batteries there.

You could be using wholesale renewable prices. You could be using renewables to charge that vehicle.

[00:12:58] Nigel:

Yeah.

[00:12:59] Sarah:

Ah.

[00:12:59] Nigel:

Well, Sarah, I think you've, you've touched on a really interesting point, and one that we're focused on, um, is what are some of the barriers to uptake of electric vehicles. And, and there's a few.

I think, uh, range anxiety has been a big part of that. And that's driven historically by the fact that the early editions of electric vehicles didn't have great range. That's starting to change. But equally, we as a country haven't kept pace with the rest of the world when it comes to charging infrastructure.

And I think there's a real opportunity now for us to think about the question you just posed, is where, you know, um, where should we be deploying our time, effort, and money? Is it on storage for diesel or, and/or could we be looking to use this moment in time to really turbocharge our EV infrastructure?

And, we certainly think there's an opportunity for the latter.

[00:13:53] Sarah:

Do you, uh, as a, as a grid-

[00:13:56] Nigel:

Mm ...

[00:13:56] Sarah:

Um, a frequent one I get is can the grid take it? Uh, do you think we have enough capacity to handle those big trucks that might need to be quickly charged? Megawatt charging.

[00:14:08] Nigel:

Yeah. Look, um, it's a great question, and certainly one that we think about quite a bit.

It's probably fair to say that there are a number of different answers for different vehicle types. And what we've been focusing on the short term is can the grid handle a big uptake in passenger vehicles and light trucks? And the answer is absolutely. Um, and that's something that is, you know, not an issue for the grid.

We can handle that. For the, heavier vehicles, we've probably done less analysis on that simply because, as I mentioned earlier, those heavy trucks are a little bit further behind. But as we were talking about earlier, the world is changing pretty quickly. So, a few years ago a really large semi-trailer, EV version of a semi-trailer could maybe do 200, 250Ks, even if it said a little bit more on the tin.

And now, you know, we're looking at 600 kilometers. That's still a fair way behind, a diesel powered, semi-trailer.

[00:15:10] Sarah:

Mm.

[00:15:10] Nigel:

But the change has been so significant in such a short space of time. That's a couple of years. It's a couple of years. Exactly right.

[00:15:17] Sarah:

Think about the combustion engine, how they've been working on that for over 100 years.

[00:15:21] Nigel:

Yeah. It, it's changing.

[00:15:22] Sarah:

And it's still only, what, 30% efficient. Like, it's amazing.

[00:15:25] Nigel:

That's right. It's changing so fast. So, the short answer is the grid can handle it. It's just about getting infrastructure.

[00:15:29] Sarah:

Can I put that on a T-shirt? Because I get asked that on a regular basis and it's super annoying. I was told by Ausgrid that you can.

[00:15:36] Nigel:

The grid can handle it. We'll look at the T-shirts.

[00:15:40] Dani:

And I do wonder if there is a conversation to be had with people about this opportunity that exists with network capacity, particularly where we have surplus solar. Research that's been done by my colleague Dylan McConnell shows that we are seeing an increase in what we call curtailment of solar PV at the utility scale.

So, this just means that some of the solar that's being generated can't be put into the grid because we just don't need it at that time. Now, I can understand that if we're talking about long haul trucks that need to be driving in the middle of the day, maybe that's not where we can soak up that solar.

But there are a lot of people aren't driving their cars in the middle of the day because they're working.

[00:16:20] Sarah:

Yeah.

[00:16:20] Dani:

It's a huge opportunity to be able to soak up that surplus solar, which is cheap and green, for the benefit of everyone.

[00:16:30] Sarah:

Actually, that makes a good point. So, is that a key to getting people into those vehicles, but even work vehicles as well?

So, let's talk about Ausgrid.

[00:16:38] Nigel:

Yeah.

[00:16:38] Sarah:

You've got quite a big fleet of passenger vehicles, don't you?

[00:16:41] Nigel:

We've got about 1,600 vehicles with steering wheels, whether that's passenger vehicles or semi-trailers, and we've got a few of those too.

[00:16:48] Sarah:

Right. And so, is charging at work a bit of secret sauce in terms of sorting this out?

Like you say, you've got all that excess solar in the middle of the day. I've been to your, one of your buildings and you've got a couple of DC chargers there. And a whole bunch of AC chargers. 22-kilowatt chargers, which are great.

[00:17:05] Nigel:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that time of day issue is a real opportunity for EV charging.

There are a lot of people who drive to work or, or for whatever reason they aren't using their vehicles in the middle of the day, and that's a perfect opportunity to charge because there's plenty of capacity in the grid usually when there is, hopefully, lots of wind and solar around at the same time.

So, that's something that, you know, we think is a real opportunity and, you know, we're hoping that, more and people understand this critical point because it's going to start to change that purchasing decision. At the moment, despite, recent sales obviously being pretty impressive for EVs generally, we're still below 2% of the total vehicle population in New South Wales are electric vehicles.

[00:17:56] Sarah:

I will say though, I think what we've just seen in the last month, so that's March, we've seen sales go from 7.5 in March 2025 to now 14.5-ish. Uh, that not everyone reports their sales as well, so XPENG doesn't, for example. So, it would be slightly higher, but that's not reflecting what's really going on, that's just deliveries.

[00:18:20] Nigel:

Yeah.

[00:18:20] Sarah:

So that's just things that were coming in on the ship anyway, and floor stock really. Everyone going out and buying floor stock, and it's doubling.

[00:18:26] Nigel:

It's spot on. It's changing.

[00:18:27] Sarah:

So, we've had thousands more orders that are going to take, I mean, just for the Zeekr 7x, it's a five-month wait. But basically, we've got all these orders that are waiting now for the ships to, you know, for those orders to be fulfilled.

So, I think we might see a little bit of a dip around April, and then I think it's just going to go up and up and up and up and up. What do you think that's sustainable though? Or is it dependent on how long fuel prices stay?

[00:18:53] Dani:

Well, it's actually essential. So, when we look at the projections of our emissions, the Climate Change Authority has shown that we actually need to ramp up our sales of EVs all the way to 2035 to meet our target range, which is 62 to 70%.

[00:19:10] Sarah:

Yeah.

[00:19:11] Dani:

In fact, you know, we are fairly far behind other countries.

[00:19:14] Sarah:

Are we?

[00:19:14] Dani:

So, if you look at the UK, they're around 30%. If you look at Sweden, they're about 60%. China is 50%, but of China, which is enormous.

[00:19:23] Sarah:

Huge. Yeah.

[00:19:24] Dani:

So, you know, if we are looking at 14% now, we still have some way to go. So, I think this is a really great thing, and we should be continuing to support that rapid uptake of electric vehicles.

[00:19:36] Nigel:

And, and I think one of the keys to this uptake, and supporting and maintaining this uptake, which I was mentioning before, is the charging infrastructure. And that's another area where we are well behind the rest of the world. What we've seen across the world is, and you won't be surprised to learn this, if you have more EV charging infrastructure, you have high penetration of electric vehicles.

[00:19:58] Sarah:

If you build it, they will come.

[00:19:59] Nigel:

If you build it, they will come. And I think that's something that we feel very strongly about. We're actually pushing for a bit of a rule change at the moment, which will allow Ausgrid as a DNSP to actually help to roll out curbside chargers utilising our existing infrastructure.

Because one of the issues that we have at the moment is that's, that's not really within our purview. We're not really encouraged to start rolling out EV chargers. I think what we really, uh, believe now is it's time for us as a community to step up and to solve this problem. And we have a really happy combination of the power and the know-how.

And right now, it is, I think it's very clear that we need to take some steps to really support what you're seeing in terms of sales, which is the shift.

[00:20:49] Dani:

Mm.

[00:20:50] Nigel:

People are starting to move towards EVs. And, and even though that's not going to solve the trucking problem overnight, it's all part of the journey.

[00:20:57] Dani:

And if I were to just use a personal anecdote, because I love evidence and big data sets, but, you know, I am also a person. It was a huge part of our own decision to take an electric vehicle because we don't have a garage. But right out the front of our house, someone installed a public charger.

[00:21:16] Nigel:

Is that right?

[00:21:17] Dani:

So that, that was the moment that we said, "Actually, maybe we could do it." You know, I mean, we-

Sarah:

And you do it.

Dani:

... and now we do it.

[00:21:22] Nigel:

Fantastic.

[00:21:23] Dani:

And in Sydney, I have to say that we're really lucky that we have a lot of options to us. Uh, and we, we feel really confident. We don't have any range anxiety.

Where it hit us was at Christmas, where we go up north to Brisbane for our annual Christmas pilgrimage. And we did feel a little bit nervous. But I have to say, after mapping it out, I feel more confident, but I also feel like there's more work to do there to be able to map out those paths and, and have sufficient charging infrastructure so we're not racing to get the last one or waiting to, for someone else to finish their charging.

[00:22:00] Sarah:

We'll be playing catch up with this if we do ramp up quickly, won't we? Do you think that we should have legislation in Australia like in the UK where they legislated 99% uptime? With their chargers? Because we do have some issues with some chargers breaking, especially some older ones potentially that should be replaced.

Um, and there's no, I don't think we have a legislated uptime with that.

[00:22:25] Dani:

Personally, and again this is a personal experience, it is tricky when you are expecting to be able to charge and you turn up and you can't.

[00:22:33] Sarah:

Mm.

[00:22:34] Dani:

So that's absolutely something that we need to look at. I think we need to look at as well what of types of chargers fit different types of people and different types of places as well.

So, my colleague Bjorn Sturmberg recently released some research in partnership with Energy Consumers Australia in the eastern suburbs of Sydney looking at what types of chargers work really well in that location, and the type of utilisation that they get matches with particular speeds and particular locations.

[00:23:04] Sarah:

They're pretty good over there actually. And they've got, I think they said something like 80% of residents live within an eight-minute walk of an EV charger, which is very impressive.

[00:23:11] Nigel:

Wow, that is impressive.

[00:23:13] Sarah:

Uh, 22-kilowatt chargers, they're the future. Telling you. Secret sauce. Secret sauce. Um, actually, just one more question about Ausgrid and your fleet. So, you've done a lot of passenger cars. I went for a ride in one of your electric tipper trucks. Are you doing more on your trucking side of things?

[00:23:28] Nigel:

Look, we are. Um, at the beginning of the year, I think the percentage of our fleet that was, electric was about 11%.

[00:23:36] Sarah:

Mm-hmm.

[00:23:36] Nigel:

Which is better than the rest of the community, but still way behind where we want it to be.

Our plan is to have by end of 2027, 24% of our vehicles electric vehicle, and we're well on the way to meeting that target. Um, and there's a, there's a couple of things that we're doing there. Um, we are looking at some of the lighter trucks which we're finding some really great options available to us.

Uh, and we're introducing a lot of electric vans as well, which is a category that previously has all been diesel. We've still got some issues around Utes, so we're really watching very closely to see when one of the many Ute manufacturers around the world can start to roll out a full EV product which gives our people what they need.

Uh, and we're also looking at what people do need. There's a lot of people who drive around in Utes which are capable of serious off-road driving. But when we actually look at the data, there are, some of those people don't necessarily need to go off-road that often.

[00:24:43] Sarah:

They could be driving a van.

And just to be clear, there are plenty of people who do work, particularly north of the Hunter, where they need that off-road capability. But you're absolutely right. Some of those people may be switching, um, to vans in the next couple of years.

[00:25:02] Sarah:

Yeah. That's my hope.

So, Dani, there's talk at one time of large transport being hydrogen, right? Hydrogen does occasionally enter the chat in my comments on my social media but has disappeared for a while, and small fleet EVs. How do you think the transport industry is going to decarbonise? Is hydrogen the future?

[00:25:25] Dani:

This is an area that I find very interesting because we are seeing it evolve over time, and if you look three years ago at what we were considering as options for transport, they are different to now. So, at those lighter to medium scale vehicles, I think we really do have very good solid electrification options now.

So, we can trust in that. My bus comes from the Leichhardt Depot. It's often electric, and that's something that, you know, I think three to five years ago we didn't think would be the mainstream option, and that's going really well. I do think that at the very heavy end of the transport sector, we don't have a good electric option.

If I were to use the most extreme example, it would be aviation. In this space, we at UNSW are still doing a lot of work on hydrogen-based options. So, our chemical engineers are working really hard to look at low carbon liquid fuels that could replace those fossil-based liquid fuel options. What I would say there is if we are looking to them, we have to wait a little bit longer than what we have at our fingertips with those electric options.

We do need to make substantial investments to be able to get those technologies from where they are at those earlier technology readiness levels all the way to market maturity, and we think that is crucial, but at the same time we really need to electrify as much as possible so we take the pressure off those heavier ends of the transport sector.

[00:26:55] Sarah:

Yeah, if we could just save diesel from all those other places, then we'd be not using 90 million a day. Which would be great.

[00:27:03] Dani:

And I think it's interesting, we've been talking a lot about transport here, and when we look at our oil usage, the statistics show us that, you know, about 75% of that is going into transport, but I do think we also need to be mindful of the other 25%.

So, for instance, diesel is often used for electricity generation as backup.

[00:27:23] Sarah:

Ah, of course.

[00:27:24] Dani:

Mine sites.

[00:27:25] Sarah:

Yeah.

[00:27:25] Dani:

We also need to think of alternatives for that as well

[00:27:27] Sarah:

Is it that high a percentage?

[00:27:29] Dani:

For transport?

[00:27:30] Sarah:

For electricity that diesel's being used?

[00:27:33] Dani:

Uh, that's for other things. So, it includes electricity, but also other sectors that use petrochemicals.

So, the whole barrel of oil is used for different things. Some transport, but others, you know, your petroleum jelly, a jar of Vaseline. That comes from petrol too.

[00:27:50] Sarah:

Yeah, it's in everything, isn't it? All that plastic.

[00:27:52] Dani:

Mm. So, we need to think of alternatives for all of those sectors.

[00:27:55] Sarah:

Yeah.

Honestly, it's funny, isn't it? It feels like it's quite overwhelming. But we can just start with the simple stuff, because we have to start somewhere, right? Anyway, I have hope. I think we'll find solutions to all these things at some point. It'll be great. All the smart people like you will figure it out.

It'll be great. All the people at UNSW. Be great. Big-brained people.

[00:28:18] Dani:

Well, this is the beauty of working in a university. I get to see those earlier stage technologies coming to fruition. They do take time. They take a lot of investment, particularly when you're looking at those larger scale investments, like electrolyzers, if you're looking at those hydrogen or hydrogen derivatives.

But, you know, we're making progress. I see really exciting technologies that are being spun out of our universities. You know, we've got one at UNSW called OzAmmonia, that has got a green alternative to ammonia, which is a critical input to fertilizer.

[00:28:46] Sarah:

Mm.

[00:28:47] Dani:

You know, this is one of the topics that we're talking a lot about, but also some excellent technologies that are coming out of Sydney Uni, out of Wollongong Uni.

It's really exciting.

[00:28:55] Sarah:

What about in the commercial side of things, in terms of Ausgrid and your buildings and then helping other, other companies?

[00:29:03] Nigel:

Yeah, so maybe I'll start with our buildings. So, we try as much as possible to, to put solar panels on our depots and our buildings, and I think if we look across our portfolio, we generate enough power from our solar panels to actually support 650 homes every day.

So that's a reasonable output of power. Um, but it's a drop in the ocean really. It's just what we can do. Um, certainly from the perspective of supporting other businesses, we're doing everything we can from a connections perspective to make connections fast and flexible to ensure that we're getting people connected to the network and making it easy for them to connect, solar generation in areas where that's suitable.

And as you may have talked about on other podcasts, we're also looking at a Community Power Network, which is looking at encouraging businesses in areas where there is excess capacity for solar panels and incentivising those businesses to install the solar panels, which then feeds into batteries, which can then be used to support the network at times when that energy's going to be really valuable.

So that's a really exciting initiative that we're looking to pilot over the next little while. And, and if that's successful it could represent a bit of a game changer for businesses like ours.

[00:30:30] Sarah:

We might see some factories with actual solar panels on them because they'll get a FIT.

[00:30:35] Nigel:

Yeah. Correct.

[00:30:35] Sarah:

That'd be good.

[00:30:36] Nigel:

Yeah, correct.

[00:30:37] Sarah:

I found that shocking that businesses don't get a Feed In Tariff.

[00:30:40] Nigel:

Yeah.

[00:30:40] Sarah:

I, I'm just... That just makes no sense to me. If you could store that power and use it for later. You got all that real estate. Flying in over Sydney and you see all those empty factories.

[00:30:50] Nigel:

Yeah.

[00:30:51] Sarah:

Doesn't make sense ...

[00:30:51] Nigel:

I think something you know, you talked before about the current energy crisis that we're going through and some of the great work that Dani's just been talking about at UNSW. I think what we're going to find is that people are going to start coming up with solutions.

We're being forced to come up with solutions and we're taking advantage of some of the opportunities which have been at our feet for a while. And this is how we're going to start to make a difference. Um, as well as some of the big game changing ideas, it's going to be, I think a coalescence of a lot of smaller but equally effective when you aggregate them.

[00:31:27] Sarah:

Actually, something I would really love to talk about is data centers. Data centers. Uh, they pose a particular challenge, and obviously use a lot of energy, a lot of water. There's a lot of concerns about it. I'll start with you, Dani. How do you think about these emerging industries and making sure that they don't set back our renewable ambition?

[00:31:48] Dani:

Yeah, I, I love this question. Thanks. It's being asked a lot.

[00:31:52] Sarah:

People are talking about it a lot, aren't they?

[00:31:55] Dani:

People are talking about it a lot. Uh, and I really like it because I like to think about it in the context of load growth more broadly.

[00:32:01] Sarah:

Mm-hmm.

[00:32:02] Dani:

So, over the past decade or more, what we've actually seen is fairly flat demand in our national electricity market.

Uh, so no growth. But what we're seeing now with industrial electrification, as we've been speaking about earlier, but also new sources of demand like, you know, the uptick in data centers, is projected to be significant over the next 10 years or so. So, as I understand it, the market operator projects that load growth will be over 25%, over a quarter more than what we already have on our network by 2035, which is something that we haven't had to deal with in a while.

[00:32:44] Sarah:

Mm.

[00:32:44] Dani:

So, your question about, you know, where are we going to get the generation from to support that load growth is a really important one. I do think there's opportunities with data centers specifically to ask for that support from those businesses to say, "Bring your load, but bring your renewable generation with you."

[00:33:07] Sarah:

Yeah.

[00:33:07] Dani:

And there's an opportunity for those businesses to underpin the procurement of additional renewable generation, and that's what I'd encourage. It's not the end of the question, as you said. It's not just energy, it's also other resources like water, and our water researchers at UNSW are thinking a lot about this as well.

What we consider is, again, not just the amount of water for the center itself, but also the location of where that water is so crucial. And I'll leave it to the water experts to tell you more about that, but it is really important when we're considering where we are siting these new sources of load and what resources they're drawing down on.

[00:33:55] Sarah:

Yeah. What about you, Nigel?

[00:33:57] Nigel:

Look, it's a really topical question. It's a very interesting question, and it's a multi-faceted question. There's obviously the issue around load growth. Interestingly, of course, for many years, businesses like ours thought that growth was just going to, and demand was just going to continue to ratchet up as we started to electrify as a society.

What's been really interesting is, in fact, for a long time it's plateaued because the technology's improved, so, so many of the devices that actually run on electricity become far more efficient. So, where the load growth actually goes is still a very much an open question, although I'm not going to challenge the views of our esteemed regulators and market operators.

Um, from a DNSP perspective, on one level, data centers are actually good for the community because if there is a big customer consuming lots of energy, that actually just brings the prices down across the board. Now, that's at its simplest level, and there are a lot of what-ifs that go into that equation.

[00:35:10] Sarah:

How does it bring down prices across the board?

[00:35:12] Nigel:

Well, because the way that the pricing model works, certainly from a DNSP perspective, is that our revenue's set by the AER, and so that doesn't really matter how much energy is flowing through the system. That's the maximum number that we can charge all of our customers is then shared out through every customer.

So, every time you pay your energy bill, you're not just paying one of the retailers who sends you the bill, whether it's a big or a small retailer. You're also paying a generator, you're also paying the transmission operators, you're paying a bunch of government taxes, and you're paying...a part of it comes to us as the DNSP.

So, the way that we make our money is by charging all of our customers on a pro rata basis how much energy is actually used, so by the number of people who are using it. So, if there are people who are using big chunks of energy that actually brings down the prices for everybody else, ostensibly at its simplest level.

There are, of course, a number of other issues need to be thought about. The location of the data centers, what level of enhancement the network needs to actually to enable these data centers to connect. But from our perspective, you know, if done thoughtfully in the right location, and without putting excessive demands on other utilities such as water, data centers can be good for the grid, and they can be good for customers.

They also prove to be a really good balancing mechanism in terms of the way the network operates. A great stabilising influence. So, there are some... a number of reasons that data centers are good for the grid. But as I said, it's a multifaceted question and there'd be plenty of people who'd have, um...

[00:36:59] Sarah:

Other feelings about that ...

[00:37:00] Nigel:

Other, other feelings.

[00:37:02] Sarah:

Actually, we've talked about Ausgrid's decarbonisation, but what about the university? What, what's the uni doing, you know, UNSW doing to reduce its own carbon emissions?

[00:37:11] Dani:

Oh, I'm very proud to answer this question because we've got a good story.

Uh, we have a very ambitious sustainability target. In fact, we are hoping and planning to electrify everything by 2030.

[00:37:23] Sarah:

Really?

[00:37:24] Dani:

It's really challenging because universities are like mini cities. We have housing, student accommodation. We've got labs that use gas. We've got a lot of lecture theaters and, you know, restaurants, cafes.

If you can do that, you can do it anywhere.

[00:37:41] Sarah:

Wow.

[00:37:42] Dani:

So, we are now in, you know, with our sleeves rolled up now, working out how we're going to do this over the next four years it is now. But we've got brilliant people working on it and are really excited to be able to show that off in 2030.

[00:37:55] Sarah:

And a lot of those buildings are quite old, aren't they?

So, have you done work retrofitting them to make them more energy efficient or?

[00:38:01] Dani:

That's right. So, there's a retrofitting task, but also sometimes there are the new builds as well. The retrofitting's can be more complex than the new builds, as you know. So, it's a great opportunity for us to show what we can do as a world leading university with a huge capability in energy, you know, I think that we've got a great plan to be able to achieve that.

[00:38:23] Sarah:

I might come and find you in four years and find out how you're going with your decarbonisation journey.

[00:38:27] Dani:

Yes, please do ...

[00:38:28] Sarah:

You can take me for a tour. Well, the question now is where to next? Okay. We've solved the world's problems. We've seen some interesting government interventions either delivered or proposed in the residential market from free electricity in the middle of the day, which is fantastic.

Discounts on batteries and incentives to purchase EVs. Are the policy settings doing enough to drive electrification in industry? Or what changes would you like to see? I might just take, take this question to you, Dani. Are the policy or regulatory changes that UNSW would like to see to either make electrification faster or perhaps fairer?

[00:39:11] Dani:

Hmm. We would love to see a national approach to electrification. And when I say a national approach, I mean, an approach that considers the technological aspects, the economic aspects, but also the societal aspects of electrification for us in Australia. I could go into detail on each of them, but I might just use an example that I think would be useful under each of those headings.

So, on the technological side, we are very invested in a secure energy transformation, particularly when it comes to our electricity grid. So, we are leveraging our real-time simulation capabilities to be able to prove up new technologies like grid forming inverters that are going to allow us to connect more variable renewables over time.

We want to get to that very close to 100% target and we think that the technologies that we are leveraging on campus can help us to do that. On the economic side, it's a really interesting space to think of how we're able to facilitate the investment into the renewable energy that we need, and that's electricity, but also into those new technologies as well that are in the pipeline.

You know, this is a space we think that we really need to work very closely with government and industry, so that we're able to not just bring those technologies all the way to market maturity, but also drive that commercial investment, you know, pull them through at the end so that, you know, we can all benefit from that cheaper renewable option in the end.

And on the societal side, we do a lot of work supporting energy justice or social equity approaches to the energy transformation, and are very passionate about understanding how people are using energy and what they want to see in this energy transformation. We see a huge role for social science alongside the technological developments and the economic factors to be able to show the social value of what we're developing, but also facilitate the community acceptance where things are changing.

You know, we appreciate that change, you know, is impactful, and it can be overwhelming, so a lot of our social scientists are working with communities in the regions, but also First Nations communities and communities in our own backyard to be able to, again, demonstrate that social value and get that community acceptance.

[00:41:49] Sarah:

Communication

[00:41:50] Dani:

Indeed.

[00:41:50] Sarah:

It's all about communication. What about you, Nigel, in terms of Ausgrid trialing a number of initiatives like batteries, EVCI or electric vehicle charging infrastructure? And we've talked about Community Power Networks on the podcast. And you've mentioned it. What changes do you think would be most impactful for helping businesses to electrify?

[00:42:11] Nigel:

Uh, look, I would start up by saying that there are a lot of policy settings which are helping, and if I think about some of the things that we're doing at the moment, the Renewable Energy Zone, the Hunter Central Coast Renewable Energy Zone, one of several. This is a fantastic initiative which is, is really going to bring a lot of renewable power into the system.

Um, as I mentioned earlier, and as you just mentioned, the pilot that we're looking at running on Community Power Network, you know, that wouldn't be possible without the support of the AER. Um, we're also rolling out dozens of community batteries. We're also looking at developing some grid scale batteries through an affiliate.

None of these things would be possible without the right regulatory settings. As I mentioned earlier, there are some areas for improvement. I think a really big one for us is the EVCI, the electric vehicle charging infrastructure. Uh, one of my favorite acronyms.

[00:43:10] Sarah:

You ought to put your chargers on your poles.

[00:43:13] Nigel:

We want to put chargers on poles. We, we'd like to put chargers in.

[00:43:17] Sarah:

Put them please on poles in cities everywhere.

[00:43:19] Sarah:

That would be great.

[00:43:19] Nigel:

We'd love to do that. And, and as many places as possible, because it's not just the, the slow chargers that we're putting on poles that we need. We need a whole range of chargers to support the whole range of vehicles.

[00:43:32] Sarah:

Mm.

[00:43:32] Nigel:

And I think that's going to be somewhere that we'd really like to see some more regulatory change to help us provide answers to some of the problems which we've talked about today and, and a lot of people are talking about at the moment. So, there's a lot of good stuff happening. Um, and I think finally just to comment on the work that Dani and her colleagues are doing at UNSW is we'd wholeheartedly support encouragement and funding for innovation in this space because these problems, as you said, Sarah, we'll find solutions.

We just need to give people the support to help them find those solutions.

[00:44:17] Sarah:

Alright. Brilliant. Thank you so much. I learnt lots.

[00:44:19] Nigel:

Thanks, Sarah. Thanks, Dani.

[00:44:20] Sarah:

Thank you.

Wired for Good, conversations for a better energy future. We hope you enjoyed today's discussion taking a behind-the-scenes look into how businesses can decarbonise.

This is the last of our podcasts for this season. We hope you enjoyed the conversations and welcome your feedback and thoughts on topics you'd like us to dive into in upcoming episodes. For more info on today's episode, visit wiredforgood.com.au. Don't forget to follow us on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode.