Join us as we bring together leaders and experts to tackle the big questions on what's needed to achieve an energy future we're proud to leave as a legacy for the next generation.

Hi, I'm Sarah Aubrey and welcome to Wired for Good, conversations for a better energy future. Joining me today are two prominent voices in Australia's energy transition, Matt Keane, Chair of the Climate Change Authority and former Treasurer and Energy Minister of New South Wales, and Kelly Wood, Group Executive for Transmission Development and Growth at Ausgrid.

Welcome to you both.

[Matt]

Thanks, Sarah. It's great to see you.

[Kelly] (1:00 - 1:01)

Thanks, Sarah. Nice to be here.

[Sarah] (1:01 - 2:24)

I'm really, really looking forward to this. This is gonna be great. Today, we're diving into the essential role communities play in Australia's energy journey.

As renewable energy zones expand, local voices and values have the power to shape more balanced and meaningful outcomes. But how do we make sure that benefits aren't confined to urban areas and that regional communities experiencing the greatest impacts truly see rewards? We'll explore how stronger, deeper partnerships with communities can make this transition smoother, fairer and faster.

Plus, we'll take a look at some lessons from other countries that could inspire approaches here in Australia. Let's get into how this shift can uplift entire regions and create lasting value. So, Matt and Kelly, I'm genuinely looking forward to this conversation.

Today, we're talking about local communities and how they can play a transformative role in our energy transition. Each community has unique values and needs, and those differences can pave unique paths forward. So, let's start with a broader question to both of you.

When you look at regional communities, there's often talk about them bearing the largest share of the load, while the benefits tend to flow towards urban areas. How do we address this imbalance to make sure the transition is fairer for everyone.

[Kelly] (2:24 - 3:28)

Yeah, so it is hard. It's not easy. But you've got to start with the big picture and effectively that the energy transition is about decarbonisation and decarbonisation is actually going to benefit everybody, both the regional and the urban communities.

So, if I focus on New South Wales for a little minute and the targets that we're trying to achieve from decarbonisation and the fact that our cold power generation is coming to an end, the whole idea of the energy transition is to get a more reliable energy supply. So, that again benefits both the regional and the urban areas. But to deliver the energy transition is roadmap, which I think Matt will probably talk about.

The roadmap is designed to benefit the regions that are mostly impacted. So, there are outcomes that they're looking to achieve so that those regional areas actually do benefit from the transition.

[Sarah] (3:28 - 3:30)

Do you mean benefiting by jobs?

Kelly] (3:30 - 3:42)

There are jobs that should be created. There is value of spend in the regional economies. So, those direct and indirect benefits to those regional centres.

[Sarah] (3:43 - 3:44)

What about you, Matt?

[Matt] (3:45 - 4:51)

Sarah, I think the benefits have always been uneven. Take the Hunter, for example, which has been the powerhouse of the New South Wales economy and also our energy system for a long period of time. The benefits are usually borne by those in the cities, but the generation of energy has come from the regions.

That's going to be the same as we transition our energy system. Regional Australia is going to be hosting a lot of the infrastructure and a lot of the economic benefits will be experienced by those living in the cities. So, what we've got to do is make sure that we've got policies in place so that we can share those benefits.

They look like ensuring that there are high-quality jobs going into those regional areas. It looks like ensuring that investment is going into country towns that will see upgrades to infrastructure, for example. It looks like seeing more economic activity.

Just as the regions have powered our economy for generations, so too will they continue to power our economy for generations to come as we transition our energy system.

[Sarah] (4:51 - 4:57)

That's it, isn't it? Jobs for the future, we can see these coal jobs ending and they're good-paying jobs.

[Matt] (4:57 - 5:31)

This transition means opportunity. This means investment, jobs and economic growth for the regions like they've never seen before. We need to make sure that those opportunities are not just being delivered through commercial contracts, but there are broader benefits flowing to those communities.

If we get the policy settings right, if we work with the industry and the government, we can ensure that this is an economic opportunity that the regions have never seen before. I want to make sure regional and rural Australia benefit from this energy transition as much as we will all benefit from this transition.

[Sarah] (5:31 - 5:45)

Kelly, across the country we're seeing increased pushback from landowners over new transmission corridors, leading to higher costs from compensation. From your perspective, what more could the industry be doing to make better use of existing infrastructure corridors?

[Kelly] (5:46 - 7:24)

Great question. At Ausgrid, we're all about getting the best possible value for communities by utilising the assets that we already have. A great example of that is our Hunter Central Coast Renewable Energy Zone solution, where we have been chosen as a energy partner to deliver that solution.

That solution reuses about 95% of our existing transmission corridors.

[Sarah]

Is that from a coal generator that's closing?

[Kelly]

It is.

It's actually not from the point of generation. We use trans grids, a bulk supply point, and then we already have existing infrastructure that is bringing that supply into load centres through the Hunter and into Newcastle, and then some of it comes down to Sydney. We've got a contract to add an additional gigawatt of capacity into the Hunter Central Coast to facilitate the connection of renewables.

We're basically replacing assets that we already own in corridors where landowners are used to hosting electricity infrastructure already. From that perspective, we are making it less impactful on those communities. We also think it will be faster to deliver than some of the larger renewable energy zones because we have to acquire less land.

We believe overall it will be cheaper as well for the consumer of New South Wales.

[Sarah] (7:25 - 7:32)

Those landowners who are already hosting transmission lines or whatever infrastructure, do they get paid more for that or is it similar?

[Kelly] (7:33 - 8:04)

On about 95% of that route, it's about 85 to 100 kilometres, we have infrastructure already in place, so we have existing easements on that land. What we are doing currently is landholder consultation and community consultation to make sure that where we think that line is going to go actually suits the majority of those individual landowners and that they understand the impact that we are going to have because there will be impact but we are trying to minimise that impact on landowners.

[Sarah] (8:04 - 8:19)

Matt, some communities, especially smaller regional ones, are facing multiple large-scale infrastructure projects at once. How do we ensure that these communities not only manage these changes but actually thrive and most importantly benefit from the transition?

[Matt] (8:20 - 9:09)

I think ensuring that they see the benefits of hosting the infrastructure that we are going to need to transition our energy system. What does that look like? That means jobs flowing, that means investment going to these communities, that means a rejuvenation of these local towns and regions.

We need to make sure that we get that right. We need to work with communities to ensure that as best we can we understand the concerns and we address them appropriately, but we also need to remember this is nation-building infrastructure. This is infrastructure that we need to continue to grow as a country, as an economy and grow our prosperity.

So, we need to work with communities to accommodate their concerns and try and address them, but we also need to get on with building the infrastructure that's going to set our country up for a more prosperous future.

[Sarah] (9:10 - 9:21)

Let's say I live in a small town, and we have a project nearby. How do I see the benefits? Do I get cheaper bills?

Is it money for a community hall? What sort of things are happening on the ground?

[Matt] (9:21 - 10:01)

I think businesses building this infrastructure need to be working with local communities to deliver the benefits directly to those communities. That may mean higher payments to landowners hosting the infrastructure. That could look like things like cheaper electricity bills or free electricity for those that are hosting generational transmission infrastructure.

Companies need to go and work to build the social license to bring communities on the journey. It shouldn't just be up to government. The industry needs to take responsibility here of working with communities.

It's in their interest to build this infrastructure and they need to bring the community along on the journey with them.

[Sarah] (10:01 - 10:16)

The risk, I suppose, for both of you is that you'll have the country versus city thing of all those lines are going to the city, they're not even benefiting us. You definitely want to make it feel like its community infrastructure benefiting everyone, don't you?

[Kelly] (10:17 - 11:27)

For the Hunter Central Coast, it's easy for us because that is actually the reality. That extra gigawatt of capacity is going to be effectively used by the industries in in the region, but we are still taking it very seriously. We're doing what Matt says, and we're on the ground and engaging with communities and understanding what they want to get out of this.

It's a once in a generation infrastructure opportunity. We're looking for effectively generational contribution, but that varies from community to community. There's no one picture fits all.

We're also working with organisations like Indigenous Energy Australia to understand what it means for those First Nations communities and what they want to get out of the energy transition. It's what Matt's talking about, the policies are there to encourage organisations to engage with those communities, to get the social licence they need to build the infrastructure, but also to understand the needs of those local communities and what those communities want out of this generational infrastructure change.

[Sarah] (11:28 - 11:44)

Many other countries are further down the track than we are, and while everywhere, as you were saying, is unique, every story is different. Are there things that we could learn from overseas countries that we could bring back and use here in Australia or consider in an Australian context?

[Kelly] (11:45 - 12:38)

We've had a look at what they're doing in the UK and also Canada. There are other nations around as well. There is a lot in the UK around community-owned infrastructure, so whether that be wind farms or solar.

That's a little bit outside of Ausgrid's remit because we are generation agnostic. We're looking at the transmission and distribution of those assets, but we are learning to see how those countries are building that social licence and community ownership seems to be one of those aspects. In Canada as well, there is a particular focus on indigenous community ownership of, again, particularly generation assets.

Our role is really around the distribution and transmission, but we are trying to learn from those countries.

[Matt] (12:40 - 14:03)

I think we could definitely learn from best practice happening internationally. Take, for example, new technologies that could be used to augment the existing grid that will enable less of a build-out of new transmission infrastructure. That's one thing that we should be looking at.

There are other ways of delivering things like essential services. Take, for example, housing. We're going to need more housing to support workers and the growth of these country towns, so being able to roll out modular houses quickly is being done in other jurisdictions but also thinking about other business models that will see communities benefit from this transition.

Think, for example, payments to landowners that host infrastructure, payments to landowners who see hosted infrastructure. That's some of the ways that the Europeans are overcoming some of these social licence challenges. They're not only paying landowners, but they're paying those people that can see the infrastructure because their amenity is impacted as well.

Different business models, creative thinking that brings the community on this journey and ensures that the benefits flow as far and as fast as possible to the whole community. We're all going to benefit from this transition, whether it be through lower electricity bills, a cleaner environment, or a more reliable energy system. We need to make sure that we're sharing those benefits.

[Sarah] (14:03 - 14:19)

That's a great point about the not just the people who are hosting the infrastructure, but the people next door. The last thing you want is communities divided by saying, you're earning a fortune from hosting some wind turbines and I'm right next door to it and I get nothing. That must happen, right?

[Matt] (14:19 - 14:51)

Totally. Wind is a perfect example. There was a time a few years ago whereby landowners would get compensated for hosting the infrastructure, but all those people around the wind turbine that looked at it, they got no benefit whatsoever.

The wind industry worked with communities and changed the business model and therefore people then who saw the infrastructure were able to get payments. I think that we need to be thinking outside the box about how we're going to do transmission and this energy transition better so more people can benefit from it.

[Sarah] (14:51 - 15:31)

Do you feel like there have been lessons learned? Because I feel like previous infrastructure or energy production, like say for example, the gas industry, there wasn't this level of consultation with the community. It was just come in, put in the fracking, communities, too bad, so sad.

Yes, and community consultation potentially was in inverted commas, but this feels like there's a lot more thought going into this to not divide communities and to try and help the communities themselves benefit as opposed to just profit making from some of these companies.

[Matt] (15:31 - 16:20)

Well, I think those companies that can best solve these challenges are the best place to win. I mean, those companies that are going to be innovative, they're going to think outside the box, they're going to bring communities along with them. They'll be the ones that get the social license to get on with building this infrastructure and running it for a long period of time. That's what we want to see.

The other thing that I'd say is think of some of the challenges people living in rural and regional Australia face. Telecommunications is an obvious one. If you build a transmission infrastructure, why wouldn't you be going to those communities and saying, you know what?

On our transmission lines, we'll host telecommunications infrastructure, so you get better internet, you get better phone reception. That would be an innovative solution that would bring benefits to an entire community and help build that social license for hosting that infrastructure. So, I think industry needs to be better at working with communities and coming up with innovative ways to bring them along the journey and share the benefits.

[Kelly] (16:21 - 17:03)

And there are some great examples out there. The hosting of telecommunications infrastructure is one where agriculture these days is relying more and more on data. So, there's a lot of demand for that type of thing.

And I'm also aware of another incident out west where somebody is building some infrastructure. They know they're going to use a lot of concrete. Concrete uses a lot of water.

It's also in an area that has in the past been prone to drought. So, they're going to leave a water treatment plant in the local community for community benefit. So, there are some of those good innovative solutions, you know, that industry coming up with.

[Sarah] (17:03 - 17:15)

That's great. We already know that there are a range of different players involved in Australia's energy landscape. Who's responsible for supporting the local community and managing the local impacts and ensuring long term social value?

Who does that?

[Matt] (17:16 - 18:14)

Well, all of us. All of us need to do that. That's not just the responsibility of government.

They have a really big role to play here. But industry also has a responsibility to do their bit. They're not just there to make profits.

They're there to ensure that they have maintained the social licence of the communities that are hosting their infrastructure, for example. So, this is a whole of community effort. This is a whole of government effort.

This is a whole of industry effort if we're going to get this transition right. I mean, this is complex stuff. You're building huge infrastructure.

We're effectively transforming our energy system in a decade. An energy system that took us over five decades to build, we're transforming it in one decade. So, this needs everyone leaning in.

And we can't just have government and the community doing their bit. We need industry to step up and take responsibility for the impact they're having on communities because they're going to be huge beneficiaries of this transition as well. So, if they want to maintain that social licence, they need to do their bit.

[Kelly] (18:14 - 18:44)

Yeah, and I think the nice thing for Ausgrid as a distribution network is that we live and work in those communities. So, it's not just the community, it's our community. So, we have 900 people living above the Hawkesbury River that are going to be helping build the Hunter Central Coast.

So, all of our staff doing the community engagement are local staff. So it’s not just the community, it’s our community.

[Sarah] (18:44 - 18:45)

So, it's not just the city folk coming in and telling people. Yeah, that's a really good point.

[Kelly] (18:45 - 19:09)

But I do agree. It requires cooperation between federal governments, local government, state government, businesses, communities, industry. Everybody's got a role to play to make sure we're not doing it to the community, but we're doing it with the community.

And that's way easier to say than it is to do.

[Sarah] (19:09 - 19:15)

Are you finding a lot of pushback? What's the temperature out there in terms of this stuff?

[Kelly] (19:16 - 19:57)

So, there's been a huge pushback in the past right across Australia. You just have to Google transmission infrastructure and there's quite a lot of negativity. At the moment where we are working in the Hunter Central Coast, as I mentioned before, we've started that community engagement.

We say that we are neutral, that the sentiment is neutral. So, nobody really wants it. Nobody wants to replace infrastructure.

Nobody wants the disruption necessarily. Some people do understand the benefit. So, we're saying that we have a predominantly neutral sentiment, which is actually a good thing.

It's better than it could be. But I wouldn't say that we're winning in any way.

[Sarah] (19:58 - 20:02)

What about with you Matt? What's the temperature out there, do you think, in terms of all this stuff?

[Matt] (20:02 - 21:07)

Look, I haven't been the energy minister for a few years, but what I do know is that rural and regional communities want to do their bit. They have always done their bit to carry this country, whether it be producing our food and fibre or our energy or the resources that basically underwrite our prosperity. Rural and regional Australia is not complaining about doing the heavy lifting for our nation's economy.

What they are saying is though, don't take us for granted. And I think industry, I think government has a responsibility to ensure that no one's left behind in this transition. And they don't need to be, Sarah.

They don't need to be at all. Everyone can benefit from this transition. And that's the message I want to deliver today.

Families in the cities can benefit through lower bills and more reliable energy. And people in the bush can benefit through huge investment going to these regions, jobs being created and economic prosperity like they've never seen before, if we get the policy settings right. And if industry step up to the plate and do what they should be doing, and that is working with communities.

[Sarah] (21:08 - 21:31)

I know we've covered a lot of topics today, and I'd love to leave our listeners with one final piece of wisdom from both of you. No pressure. So, on this podcast, we're all about a faster, lower cost, more accessible transition.

What do you think are the main things we need to do differently so that we get to the best energy transition as quickly as possible? We'll start with you, Matt.

[Matt] (21:31 - 22:57)

I think what we need to do is firstly ensure the community understands what we're trying to do. So, this is an understanding piece. By transitioning our energy system, not only do we get a cleaner environment, which is critically important for future generations, but we have the once in a generation opportunity to leave our economy stronger and more prosperous than any generation of Australians has ever imagined was possible.

That's the chance by installing renewable energy, we can get some of the cheapest and most reliable energy anywhere on the planet. That means lower bills for families and for energy intensive businesses, a renaissance through them having competitive advantage when it comes to cheap energy. So that means investment, that means jobs, that means economic growth for our nation.

So, I think helping people understand what we're trying to achieve here and why we're trying to achieve it. That's the first thing. The second thing is making sure that we are working with communities to address impacts whilst getting on with the job of delivering this transition.

So, we need to work with communities, bring them on the journey, and that's not just government's responsibility. Industry has a huge responsibility to play in maintaining their social license and working with the communities. They're not just here to build things and then collect profits.

They're here to build things and partner long term with communities. And that way everyone benefits.

[Sarah]

What about you, Kelly?

[Kelly] (22:58 - 24:07)

Yeah, so I think I'll touch on you use accessible. We use accessible interchangeably with fairer energy transition. And I think that is looking at alternatives that minimise the impact on communities while maximising the benefits.

So if I think about the work that we are doing with Indigenous Energy Australia and the Hunter, and we are looking at how Indigenous communities, what they want to achieve out of the energy transition, out of this once in a lifetime energy transition, and if we can get generational change based on what those communities need and want. So, I think that's important for the whole fairer transition. And then the other point you mentioned about the cheaper and faster ways.

I think it's about, Matt mentioned it, the earlier we can bring the renewable generation into the system, the earlier we can all benefit from the lower cost. I think that's probably a key point.

[Sarah] (24:08 - 25:01)

I guess the hard part is people have yet to see their bills come down, so they're not equating renewables. We keep saying it's the cheapest form of energy, and we know it is, but people haven't seen it on their bills yet. That's the frustration.

And people are using that to try and say, oh, no, they're not really cheap. That's what's making your bills expensive. And there is a lot of misinformation out there about that.

It's trying to help people understand transitions cost money. And we've had a long period of energy policy being a political football and things potentially should have, not necessarily in New South Wales at all, but in Australia in general, things that potentially should have happened sooner haven't happened. But yeah, we need to kind of bring the public with us, don't we?

Right. That's my comment. Well, thank you both so much.

Once again, I've learned lots, and I'm sure our listeners have too. So, thank you for coming.

[Kelly]

Thanks, Sarah.

[Matt] (25:02 - 25:04)

Thanks, Sarah. Great job.

[Sarah] (25:05 - 25:42)

What's powering the shift to net zero? It's not just solar and batteries. It's smarter, faster grid connections.

In our next episode, we're exploring how Australia's electricity grid is evolving to meet tomorrow's demands. From connecting homes and EVs to planning for AI and renewables, we'll unpack the infrastructure, innovation and collaboration driving a more sustainable future. For more info on today's episode, visit www.wiredforgood.com.au. Don't forget to follow us on YouTube, Spotify or Apple podcasts so you never miss an episode.

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